Boost drop off - any reason why?

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Boost drop off - any reason why?

Postby a73camaro » Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:38 pm

Hi there,

I have a '98 Subaru that has a WRX turbo/intercooler added to it. More info here -> http://www.msruns.com/viewtopic.php?f=102&t=22960 The turbo is a TD04 with a modded wastegate. So I got the tune dialed in and I am finding this boost "bleed off" after it hits peak boost. Can the wastegate not close properly when under boost? My thought is that there is high exhaust pressure before the turbine that keeps the wastegate from closing properly. Exhaust after the turbo is a bell-mouthed 3" downpipe.

Boost Controller.png
Boost controller set for 180 kPa
Boost Controller.png (8.67 KiB) Viewed 232 times

Wastegate connected.png
Pressure line connected to the wastegate, boost controller bypassed
Wastegate connected.png (10.63 KiB) Viewed 232 times

Wastegate disconnected.png
Pressure line disconnected from the wastegate
Wastegate disconnected.png (8.8 KiB) Viewed 232 times

I also wired the wastegate shut and no changes.
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Re: Boost drop off - any reason why?

Postby muythaibxr » Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:10 pm

Having the wastegate wired shut doesn't keep boost from falling off?

Sounds like you have a leak or something.

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Re: Boost drop off - any reason why?

Postby a73camaro » Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:04 pm

If it had a leak it wouldn't build boost at all. I double checked the tightness of the intercooler clamps and I don't hear any exhaust leaks.

Here is a log from a month ago - boost held.
Boost Controller month ago.png
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Re: Boost drop off - any reason why?

Postby Peter Florance » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:31 am

I'd like to look at spark angle and AFR during those 2 events
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Re: Boost drop off - any reason why?

Postby Mazdasquirted » Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:56 am

where are you getting your boost signal from the compressor housing?

did this problem occur before the intercooler was added?
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Re: Boost drop off - any reason why?

Postby a73camaro » Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:43 am

I did change the timing map a little - I was getting a little detonation under high boost so I took some timing out. I just starting running a mix of gas (91 octane) and E85 (105 octane) at a 10:3 ratio. I did recently do a compression test and all cylinders were good.

Boost Controller month ago map.png
Timing map a month ago
Boost Controller month ago map.png (9.17 KiB) Viewed 188 times


Boost Controller map.png
Current timing map
Boost Controller map.png (8.62 KiB) Viewed 188 times
Last edited by a73camaro on Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Boost drop off - any reason why?

Postby a73camaro » Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:46 am

The wideband was disconnected for the older datalog.

Boost Controller month ago SA.png
Spark advance a month ago, WB disconnected
Boost Controller month ago SA.png (12.15 KiB) Viewed 188 times


Boost Controller SA.png
Current spark advance with AFR
Boost Controller SA.png (10.76 KiB) Viewed 187 times


Here is a datalog from two months ago - older timing map but I had pressure pulses under boost hence the spikes in the MAP signal.
Boost two months ago.png
Two months ago
Boost two months ago.png (11.12 KiB) Viewed 186 times
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Re: Boost drop off - any reason why?

Postby a73camaro » Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:06 am

Mazdasquirted wrote:where are you getting your boost signal from the compressor housing?

did this problem occur before the intercooler was added?


Boost signal comes from the manifold to the MS. Wastegate pressure comes from the compressor housing. I have always had an intercooler.
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Re: Boost drop off - any reason why?

Postby wes kiser » Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:31 am

Are you controlling boost with the MS? If you simply are running compressor pressure to the wastgate, i would expect boost to drop as rpm increases. That is what it always does(possibly not that severely).

There is always a high exhaust pressure present attempting to open the gate. I would try more preload in the gate. At this piont this is speculation anyway.

Please give a detailed explanation of you current wastegate and boost control system. What changes have been made since the "high and flat" boost graphs?
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Re: Boost drop off - any reason why?

Postby a73camaro » Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:36 am

wes kiser wrote:Are you controlling boost with the MS? If you simply are running compressor pressure to the wastgate, i would expect boost to drop as rpm increases. That is what it always does(possibly not that severely).


The MS is controlling boost - that is why there is a "Boost Duty Cycle" on some of the datalogs. I should have stated that the boost signal comes from the compressor housing, to the boost controller, and finally to the waste gate.
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Re: Boost drop off - any reason why?

Postby wes kiser » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:00 am

Have their been any inlet or exhaust changes? If it does this with the WG wired shut, the source of the issue is pretty limited. You are either breathing through a plugged air filter, your BOV is leaking, or you have a new exhaust restriction or pre turbo leak.
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Re: Boost drop off - any reason why?

Postby a73camaro » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:06 am

No BOV and the downpipe was the only change - went to a larger non-cat downpipe to replace the factory catted downpipe. Intake track is good. Any chance that the turbo can "wear out" quickly?
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Re: Boost drop off - any reason why?

Postby muythaibxr » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:43 am

Does increasing the boost duty increase or decrease boost? If it increases boost, you need to change the output polarity.

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Re: Boost drop off - any reason why?

Postby wes kiser » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:46 am

If the shaft play is ok, it didn't wear out. Typically until the wheels scrub housings, they still boost fine even after they are shot.

What size engine (assume somewhere in the 2.0l range), and what do you mean when you say TD-04? Do you mean a mitsu td04-13b? If so, the increase in power you likely got from the downpipe change (and attending increase in airflow) my be pushing the compressor past its choke point if it was marginal before. The 13b is pretty small. Even still, the large dropoff you are seeing is pretty unlikely given that scenario. Does the car feal faster even at the reduced boost levels than it did before when it held boost?

Have you had the turbo off to inspect it? Any chance it has development a crack around the wastegate puck?
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Re: Boost drop off - any reason why?

Postby Mazdasquirted » Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:03 pm

I am going to steal this write-up from miataturbo.net so all rights are to them, but this should help out..


The topic of hooking up manual boost controllers may prove to be confusing to some, or maybe somebody has bad boost sag on the high end of their kpa logs? I figured this could be useful to all. Specifically, maybe some folks seem to be having boost curves that look like this, and perceive it as justification for the fact that their manual boost controller just isn't cutting it, and they need to go out and spend money on a fancy electronic boost controller.

Image

So, does that look familiar? If so, save your money. Fixing this problem is going to cost you about $3.

First, let's take a look at why this is happening. Here's a simplified diagram of your turbo system, where we have the turbocharger itself, then the intercooler, and then the throttle body.

Image

Point "A" in this system is where a lot of folks have their boost controller connected. It's that nipple that came from the factory on the side of your compressor housing, probably with a hose already attached between it and the wastegate actuator.

Well, that's just stupid.

What's happening here is that your boost controller is in fact maintaining a constant level of boost, however it's doing it in the wrong place. Specifically, it's maintaining a constant level of boost at the compressor, but that's not what your engine is actually seeing.

Confused?

Image


Yes, behold the simple drinking straw. Solver of great mysteries.

Here's a quick experiment. Stick a drinking straw into your pie-hole, and blow through it. Not too hard, very gently in fact. Very, very gently. This ain't Hustler's mom we're dealing with.

Feel the resistance that the straw is offering? No? Of course not. At the rate at which you are blowing into it, the straw is not much of a restriction at all.

Now, blow harder. And now you start to feel the straw fighting you.

A funny thing happens when we try to flow a gas through a restrictive orifice. The more we try to flow through the restriction, the more restrictive it becomes. In practical terms, at low rates of flow, we get very little pressure loss across the restriction. As flow increases, so does the pressure loss. And it's not linear, either. The magnitude of pressure drop increases almost exponentially with flow rate.

Now, it may not look like one, but your intercooler is a drinking straw. A large, heavy, aluminum, multi-faceted drinking straw. Or, at least, it exhibits a lot of the same characteristics as one. So, back to the diagram:

Image

Say that we have our boost controller set such that we see a peak of 12 PSI in the intake manifold. At 4,000 RPM, we reach that point. We are, incidentally, flowing about 130 CFM through the intercooler (our engine has a 100% VE at all speeds) and we're loosing about 1 PSI across the intercooler. So while the pressure at point B is 12 PSI, the pressure at point A (which is what the boost controller is seeing) is actually 13 PSI.

Now, we increase the speed to 7,000 RPM. At this point, we're moving about 220 CFM, and yet, what's this? The pressure drop across the intercooler has increased to 3 PSI! We didn't even double the flow, and yet we tripled the drop. (Well, I'm ignoring the fact that these are relative, rather than absolute pressure values, but you get the idea.) So now, even though the MBC is faithfully holding 13 PSI at the compressor, we're only seeing 10 PSI at the manifold.


The solution here should be pretty obvious by now. Move the boost controller from point A to point B.

By doing this, we are now telling the boost controller, in essence, "Hey, I want you to do whatever it takes to maintain a constant pressure at point B in the system, and to hell with what's going on over at the compressor." And it will comply. (Boost controllers are pretty simple-minded like that. They don't question orders.) Specifically, it now does not matter what the drop across the intercooler is, at least insofar as your actual manifold pressure is concerned. As drop across the IC increases, the boost controller will cause the compressor pressure to increase accordingly. So by the time you get to 7,000 RPM and are experiencing 3 PSI of drop across the IC, the pressure at point A will be up to 15 PSI, and you'll still be getting your 12 PSI at the manifold.

Image

And here's everything you need to make it happen:

Image

Yup. One 1/8" NPT hose-barb fitting. About $3 at your local ACE Hardware store. Drill ye' olde hole into the pipe which leads up into your throttle body, install this fitting into it, and plumb a hose from there to your MBC. Using all-silicone tube? (fag.) Well, just drill a hole in the colid-side end tank of the IC itself. Anywhere is fine so long as it's after the IC core, and before the throttle body.

You'll probably have to turn the MBC down just a tad in order to achieve the same peak boost you had before, as it's no longer having to factor in even the smallest IC drop.
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Re: Boost drop off - any reason why?

Postby Lifvendahl » Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:35 pm

That not really the issue... The ms is taking it's map-signal from intake and not before the ic. I think it's your boost settings, because the boost duty is dropping right after peakboost thus 100% tp.
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Re: Boost drop off - any reason why?

Postby a73camaro » Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:40 pm

Thanks for all the replies and things to look at. I'll give some background information in hopes that paints a better picture of what is going on.

The engine in the Subaru is a EJ251, a DOHC engine that has been rebuilt with Wiseco forged pistons and compression is at 9.25:1. With the stock downpipe, top end high boost felt restricted so that is why I got the catless downpipe. The turbo is the TD04 that comes stock on a WRX (2.0L engine) and yeah it isn't very big.

The boost controller works as follows - the boost solenoid is in between the wastegate and the nipple on the compressor housing outlet. When the solenoid is off no boost goes to the wastegate. When the solenoid is on, boost is routed to the wastegate, building pressure and overcoming the spring pressure of the wastegate. When the solenoid is off and there is pressure between the wastegate and solenoid, pressure is bled off through a third port on the solenoid. As seen in some of the data logs, when boost get close to the set pressure - there is control over the solenoid so that appears to have worked.

Here is the boost map - my thought is to only get full boost at full throttle.
Boost Map.PNG
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Re: Boost drop off - any reason why?

Postby muythaibxr » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:42 am

Again, have you verified with open-loop boost that lower duty gives you higher boost?

If it doesn't that's your problem.

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Re: Boost drop off - any reason why?

Postby a73camaro » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:47 am

muythaibxr wrote:Again, have you verified with open-loop boost that lower duty gives you higher boost?

If it doesn't that's your problem.

Ken


I guess I don't understand your response. I wired the wastegate closed and I still get the same peak of boost followed by a rolloff. The boost controller has no affect to the boost solenoid in this situation.
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Re: Boost drop off - any reason why?

Postby Wergilius » Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:57 pm

What muythaibxr means is that you should change boost control setting to open loop.

Enable over-boost protection and set all targets to 100%

Do a test run and make a note of boost

Set target to 90% and make a test run again,
now boost should get higher, and so on.

Doing that you verify that all tubing, connection, settings, valve etc are correct, lower % should result in higher boost.
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