V3.0 MS3X for Nissan VK56 V8 setup help

[jsmcortina]

If you are having trouble getting a reading in the composite logger and do have an oscilloscope, you should scope TACHSELECT and TSEL on the mainboard. That will give you the raw and conditioned signal.

You can do the same for the cam signal on the MS3X board but it is a little more fiddly.
The input can be found on one side of R44. The output can be found on the via next to pin1 of U7. (Careful!)

James

[sjl008]

If you are having trouble getting a reading in the composite logger and do have an oscilloscope, you should scope TACHSELECT and TSEL on the mainboard. That will give you the raw and conditioned signal.

You can do the same for the cam signal on the MS3X board but it is a little more fiddly.
The input can be found on one side of R44. The output can be found on the via next to pin1 of U7. (Careful!)

James

Great info, I will try again today. I have checked my wiring etc., and came up with this: I had supplied pins#123 for the VR (I hope and been told thats what they are) sensors with GND , +5V (OFF TPS) , AND sig. to pin#24MSdb37Conn. I will be changing +5 to +12v today!!!
Today I P'shopped this to help in verifying correctness. Apparently Nissan chooses +12v ECU pwr to crk. sens. Is this really a VR sensor? see below:


I will try and post logfiles tonight. (China time)

[billr]

That last post indicates the crank/cam sensors are Hall-effect or opto, not VR. Most likely Hall.

[sjl008]

SOOOO<
1) FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS TO CHANGE JUMPERS TO:
-TSEL~OPTOOUT
-XGI1~ XGI2
- OPTOIN~TACHSELECT
aLSO, do I need to remove the diodes D1 and D2 with jumpers?

(Gotta be hall effect ...~~~ )

Do I need to remove "U3" ?????? please respond, I'm at shop today.

[jsmcortina]

Wait.... that's not the recommended way for MS3 !

Follow the manual:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/ignition.html#vrv3pull
http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/ignition.html#ms3xcam

James

[sjl008]

That last post indicates the crank/cam sensors are Hall-effect or opto, not VR. Most likely Hall.

Absolutely no luck- rule of thumb: "Never Rush Through"...

So, I read posts after the fact and- I removed C12; C30; D1(& Jumpered); I LEFT U3 alone; disconnected my 1k to VRin put in proto area, changed from the VR to the opto/Hall jumper changes, turned r52/56 3 turns cc and nothing. I moved the sensor voltage from +5V to +12v which is according to the factory manual (clip'd and posted above.)

hope I didn't hurt the board or circuits. So according to instructions it appears I may have one of these:

"Gear Tooth sensor

The gear-tooth sensor is a variant of the hall sensor - the key difference is that it has a magnet built into it and switches when close to steel, no external magnets are required. This makes them very easy to use. These are almost exclusively a three wire sensor. In CAS (crank angle sensor) units a multiplug may be used to combine multiple sensors. The sensor itself acts like a switch to ground when close to steel (This I must check). The gear-tooth sensor requires a supply voltage which is usually 12V from a fused 12V supply or 5V from the TPSREF output of the Megasquirt. The sensor is then grounded at the Megasquirt and the third wire connects to the tach input."

I will try hard to get at least a decend oscope pattern for both cam and crank [taking my time today not frantically rushing] so we can superimpose the crk/cam.Now, I believe I should replace the components I removed and re-setup according to a VR circuit on the boards????? THEE info for "Gear tooth sensor" is: "The Megasquirt board needs to be set for VR input. V3.0 VR+pullup setting - V3.57 VR+pullup setting
(Note, that previous Megasquirt versions may have used the optoisolator input, but for better high frequency response with toothed wheels and to match the input on the MS3X card, it is advised to use the VR circuit.) "

so I am curious to find out why I'm having problems with the composite logger showing any signal other than my stims.

MY SENSOR

[sjl008]

Got new info, found original harness-confirmed terminals1-2-3 are grnd-sig.-+12v

Got scope pattern, will post later.

[jsmcortina]

As noted in the text you quoted. The firmware for MS3 expects that sensors are wired using input circuits of the same polarity. i.e. when using the MS3X circuit for the cam, you should use the "VR" circuit on the mainboard too.
This is mainly relevant to "special" wheel patterns so that the polarity relationship between cam and crank is maintained. (See 'opel's 420A seq topic.)

James

[sjl008]

My Results:
1- Composite logger shows big crank signal and little crank instead of crnk & cam. Upsetting but need to diagnose why. Must be in my V3.0 board conf.
Attached are these logs.

[jsmcortina]

(EDIT)
In the first log (02:31) there's no pattern recognisable. The signal is on the crank input.

In the second log (22:53) there's a signal on the cam input which looks like a good signal from the crank sensor.

Neither log shows the cam signal or both signals?

(Also but of no relevance, your computer's clock is not set.)

James

[sjl008]

(EDIT)
In the first log (02:31) there's no pattern recognisable. The signal is on the crank input.

In the second log (22:53) there's a signal on the cam input which looks like a good signal from the crank sensor.

Neither log shows the cam signal or both signals?

(Also but of no relevance, your computer's clock is not set.)

James

So, I posted the 2ch. oscope patterns....at least they show what the input signals from the sensors are superimposed. My MS unit appears to be not set up correctly, if it was we should have recognizable composite logs correct???

The oscope pattern is showing a full 17+17+17+17+17++ rotation which is more than a complete 4 cycle. What I find weird is the long high, and long low of the blue cam pattern making my brain confused as to "where's the beginning of #1cyl compression. I really am ready to give up the stock sensors, but I've worked so hard to get this far; I really hope it goes to good use when I'm/we are done ;)

NEXT STEPS:
1- Find out why my V3.0 MSEXTRA is mal-configured? what should I check? (P.S. it is setup for VR again, with J3 jumped on extra board. mainboard pots are set 3 turns from full cc- not full cc.

2-? Need help with step 1...lol

[sjl008]

(EDIT)
In the first log (02:31) there's no pattern recognisable. The signal is on the crank input.

In the second log (22:53) there's a signal on the cam input which looks like a good signal from the crank sensor.

Neither log shows the cam signal or both signals?

(Also but of no relevance, your computer's clock is not set.)

James

So, I posted the 2ch. oscope patterns....at least they show what the input signals from the sensors are superimposed. My MS unit appears to be not set up correctly, if it was we should have recognizable composite logs correct???

The oscope pattern is showing a full 17+17+17+17+17++ rotation which is more than a complete 4 cycle. What I find weird is the long high, and long low of the blue cam pattern making my brain confused as to "where's the beginning of #1cyl compression. I really am ready to give up the stock sensors, but I've worked so hard to get this far; I really hope it goes to good use when I'm/we are done ;)

NEXT STEPS:
1- Find out why my V3.0 MSEXTRA is mal-configured? what should I check? (P.S. it is setup for VR again, with J3 jumped on extra board. mainboard pots are set 3 turns from full cc- not full cc.

2-? Need help with step 1...lol

OK, so I've set my computer's clock, now what do I do? (j/k)

POST 21 shows CAM hysterious out of adjustment! I have figured that 1 out. adjusting my MSextra boards pots should clear that up right?

FYI- I built a stim with an MCU that I've written in C giving me 2 signals to mimic the VK's engine. This will only help in setting up MSextra board configing in TS, and has become a learning tool for me. Now, I have a finished Rally car that I want to drive now! REALLY, it's gonna be a lot of fun! so, Please help me setup my MSII V3.0 board to get this thing running for the time being since there is NO DECODER for my engine; is this possible?
(Both MS2 & MS3X ECU's are working perfectly...so far to my knowledge)


Now I need some temp help TO SETUP my Nissan VK56 wastedCOP/ bank injection FOR MS2 needed. can anyone help? can this be done?

Remember, I have a 36-1-1 crank VR. this means I may need to config. for 18-1 and split differences right? HEeeeEEeEeeLP.

[jsmcortina]

Please post the composite logs showing the crank and cam pattern recorded on the car.

Plus identify in a screen capture where TDC #1 firing is.

James

[sjl008]

I have no problem trying again capturing a composite log; however, my last few attepts with this type of Hall/VR gear tooth (Flywheel actually) sensors have been difficult. For some reason, TS has no problem with the stim logging, but cranking the car sometimes has poor, to NO pattern shown. The cam pattern does not come up. ( I understand "no comp. log-NO success...)
Post 21 shows the CAM sensor's need for hysteriou
s adjustment so I will check/ adjust with oscope and tune- and then pray and hopefully have success.

As for my question, can I config. either MS2/3Extra to function with my car? (Obviously'd be nice to run the intended sequential, but wasted COP/ BANK FIRE IS my last hope for now, until a smooth composite log can be achieved.

[jsmcortina]

Unless you are able to get signal from your crank and cam sensors then no decoder can possibly work.

There's nothing presently in MS2/Extra or MS3 that will work as-is and until you are able to provide composite logs there won't be.

James

[sjl008]

Understood.

Thanks for your support ;)

[billr]

Clarify some things for me, so I can follow along better; maybe even help:

1) Are the crank and cam trigger-wheels truly in separate areas, one turning at crank speed (you mentioned the flywheel) and one at cam speed?

2) Have we established that both sensors are Hall, and "gear-tooth" type, not "vane" type?

3) Are the scope traces shown in the post of 4/16/12 from a stand-alone scope, or are those derived and displayed via TS or MLV (in some way that I don't know yet!)?

4) Are the crank and cam sensors, and their trigger-wheels, all OEM stock; including mounting and location?

5) Has this engine ever run successfully with this crank/cam sensor set-up, with MS or some other ECM?

Forgive me if some of that has already been covered in the thread. I did go through it, but may have missed or not understood something. Point is, of course, that we must figure out why your crank and cam signals are crappy, especially the crank.

[sjl008]

Clarify some things for me, so I can follow along better; maybe even help:.

1) Are the crank and cam trigger-wheels truly in separate areas, one turning at crank speed (you mentioned the flywheel) and one at cam speed?
Yes. crk is located in stck position on flywheel, while cam is located (Only one on VK56) rear of left cyl. head.
2) Have we established that both sensors are Hall, and "gear-tooth" type, not "vane" type?
It has been established through a lot of my trial n error that YES indead the sensors are as post 24 [taken from megamanual] shows a HALL / VR TYPE sensor. it shows patterns from my standalone 2ch. oscillascope in above pictures. You can see the cam's 1-3-4-2 pattern that Nissan usessuperimposed onto the 36-1-1 (or 17 teeth per 180* with a missing tooth totalling 36 teeth including the 2 missing teeth 180deg. separated.
3) Are the scope traces shown in the post of 4/16/12 from a stand-alone scope, or are those derived and displayed via TS or MLV (in some way that I don't know yet!)?
I have only been able to capture once a TS that would work for James, but, it didn't log. by the time I had the log working they were unread-able like James said. I bring along my laptop oscope to read the sensors now- I will try to adjust the hysterious as mentioned earlier to "clean-up" the low voltage cam signal as the screenshots show it being above.
4) Are the crank and cam sensors, and their trigger-wheels, all OEM stock; including mounting and location?
Yes.
5) Has this engine ever run successfully with this crank/cam sensor set-up, with MS or some other ECM?
I have replacement sensors from factory...this is all I have & want to use since my final goal is to have a decoder, or A megasquirt option sequential or not for the VK56 V8 motor. It is an outstanding motor at an affordable price compared to crate motors when bought 2nd hand.

Forgive me if some of that has already been covered in the thread. I did go through it, but may have missed or not understood something. Point is, of course, that we must figure out why your crank and cam signals are crappy, especially the crank.
Any extra help is appreciated-I feel alone as it is here in another country trying to get this thing ready for the GOBI desert race. I need to find out why the TS isn't showing my patterns, but my oscope is! I'm using 3 laptops with licensed TS' so redundant backup to see if its a laptop problem, or ecu problem. I also built 2 well functioning V3.0 MS boards setup for steppermotor(another unresloved issue) have the daughter card w/ latest firmware operating well with all my stims,( the standardV2.21 / my 555 stime, and a programmable stim that simulates the VK56 motor's sensors; and, the MSEXTRA board w/ seq attachment.

[billr]

Can you post a scope trace with a faster sweep-rate and one crank revolution covering the full screen width? That would show the individual tooth pulses better. Your sensors will be either Hall or VR, the term "Hall/VR" is what is confusing me; but I'm pretty sure they are Hall, if they are both 3-wire as shown previously. I would sure disconnect the cam sensor, get that out of the confusion, until the crank sensing is all worked out and the engine runs.

[jsmcortina]

The engine won't run without the cam sensor though - it needs a special decoder writing that will use crank and cam.

For that decoder I need to see composite logs of crank AND cam.

James