Audi A4 1.8TQ, AEB, MS3X, now dynoed with Holset HE221W.

eMTea · Post by **eMTea** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:59 pm

Hi all!
I'd like to start off with a few good words about this forum, especially to Matt, Jerry, James and Phil, everyone who posts troubled threads, get help! Thanks a lot for your help and patience.

I'm about to wire and start up my first MS, a MS3X in an 96' Audi A4 1.8tQ, (AEB). The engine has all the needed hardware installed from the factory, and to start off, everything is stock.

I've spent a lot of time reading this forum, watching YouTube videos, and I've also bought and read "Performance Fuel Injection Systems" by Matt and Jerry, and I feel I have a good understanding of how EFI is built up, and the basics of tuning.

My "problem" is;
- Where to start?
- Is the first VE table calculated by TS, to have a basic fuel map to start with?
- If I want to setup an AFR table to use for VEAN, how do I know what is correct?

I hope this thread was not too hard to get trough, but if you can help me get started, I would appreciate it a lot!

billr · Post by **billr** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:18 pm

Do you have any tune (.msq file) at all? If not, be patient a bit and maybe someone running a similar engine will post one. Otherwise, start by copying the "MS3 Example" project. Those maps should be good enough to get an engine running. Obviously (I hope) some particulars like the "required fuel" and triggering parameters of the "example" will have to be reset to match your engine; do you know how to do that? If you have a tune file already, then post it.

eMTea · Post by **eMTea** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:00 am

Hi! I'm currently at work, working as a service engineer, so I'm not back home until Monday, and go to a new 2 weeks at work in Denmark at Wednesday, (I live in Norway) so I'm just trying to gather information before I'm sitting there with everything finished wired up.

I bought the car 2 weeks ago, on the way to the airport, and the car is still located at the previous owners house ;)

When I input displacement, approx HP, injector size, will the req fuel come up with a basic fuel map for me?

The easiest thing would be, if someone had a 1.8t map I could start with, add 5% fuel to be on the safe side, and pull off 2-4deg of the timing, and start tuning from there.
I'm going to optimize for 98 octane RON, and maybe try E85 (RON 102 octane, and a lot more internal cooling effect) next season, because of the cold climate here, they only have E75 on pumps now.

billr · Post by **billr** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:59 am

When you input displacement, number of cylinders, injector flow, and stoic AFR you do not get a VE table. You get the total injector PW required for each cylinder cycle if the cylinder fills with exactly one "standard atmosphere" of air on its intake stroke. I think there must also be an assumption in that calculator that there is one injector per cylinder. That total PW/cycle is later modified to account for different than one injector per cylinder, and the PW shown in places will be after that "total" PW is modified to account for firing injectors more than one time per cycle. Back to the VE table... if you use MAP "multiply" (as recommended in TS), then the VE map only accounts for breathing characteristics of the engine. For most cases, where there is a throttle and then some form of intake manifold, that breathing doesn't change all that much regardless of engine design. And, VE isn't really influenced at all by displacement. I feel that virtually any engine that is suitable for speed-density control can be started and run if all VE cells are just set to 80, if the "req_ fuel" is correct and cranking pulse is 200-300%. It may not start easy, or run well, but it will run. The "example" VE table is a much better starting point than simple 80 everwhere, so start with the example project. All kinds of stuff will be approximately right that way. I may have some of the particulars not-quite-correct in that rambling above, someone please correct me where appropriate, so the OP doesn't start out with some bogus info!

Post by **jsmcortina** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:16 pm

Once your MS3 has the firmware installed it already has the basic VE table there and default settings for everything.

James

HidRo · Post by **HidRo** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:43 pm

I will provide my MSQ, depending on the engine configuration he has now. Discussing in PM.

Attached is my latest MSQ.
630cc injectors
Garrett T3T4E turbo
DIY Boost control solenoid
COP's with 4 BIP's

This has not been tuned on the dyno yet, so, it's not perfect, and obviously, you should use with caution.

billr · Post by **billr** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:24 pm

Helping the OP is the primary goal, of course, but why not discuss here so other folks can learn too?

eMTea · Post by **eMTea** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:53 pm

Thank you!

I have completely stock setup now, and will start there. New turbo and fmic will be the first upgrade when I feel comfortable with the tuning part.

HidRo, did you also have a .msq for the S3 injectors and turbo?

What fuel pressure are you using 3-3,5 bar with 1:1 regulator?

HidRo · Post by **HidRo** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:45 am

billr, the discussion was just about the setup he has, nothing major.

eMTea, attached is the last k04-023 and 380cc injectors map I had.
I was using a 3bar with vacum feed (stock like).

eMTea · Post by **eMTea** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:12 am

Very nice, then I can just adjust the whole table +40% to compensate for the smaller 240cc stock injectors, or whatever I choose to use.

This will be very helpful in the startup process, looking forward to start this in a couple of weeks

HidRo · Post by **HidRo** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:30 am

No. Don't do that.
You need to setup to the injectors you are running.
Go to Basic Setup -> Engine Constants -> Required Fuel and enter your engine size, injectors, etc.
This should be enough to set everything ok. and you might be able to start the engine.
BUT, make sure you have everything set correctly, as for outputs, tacho, etc etc etc... Don't use a MSQ directly, expecting it will work. Make sure everything is as you need first ;)

eMTea · Post by **eMTea** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:42 am

Ok, so the VEtable will take care of the calculations, if I enter the injector size?

I'm using MS3, so I guess I won't be able to use the mgq directly, but just use the tables as a starting point.

HidRo · Post by **HidRo** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:25 am

COrrect, the VE will take care of the calculation.

Just use some of the information as the Toothed wheel information, etc which is the same for all 1.8T engines (and I believe most of the VW 60-2 wheels), the VE tables might be a good starting point, but will need some tweaking probably.

eMTea · Post by **eMTea** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:58 am

Yes, thanks a lot! I really appreciate it!

I'll probably go fully sequential, but maybe I'll start with WS, if that is easier.

BTW: do you use stock piston/rods?

HidRo · Post by **HidRo** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:06 am

Stock pistons (they are rated to 500hp+) and Brute rods. You can get IE, Scat, etc, which are basically the same.
Stock rods have a limit of around 400nm of torque, specially if low down in the RPM (like the torque that you get from a S3 setup).

eMTea · Post by **eMTea** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:21 am

Thats what I also heard, 100NM pr rod, same rods in the 5cyl as well.
First of all I want ms to run approx as a "chipped" 196hp ECU, because in the beginning of January, I'm going to a trackday, called "Autopower on Ice 2013". I love this weekend, 2yrs ago I had an S2 Avant, but this time something cheaper

Then after that I will consider rebuild of the bottom end.

HidRo · Post by **HidRo** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:33 am

If you are thinking big power already, maybe consider changing the exhaust valves and all the springs for uprated ones, to be able to rev up to 8000 or something.
Rods, bearings, and gaskets, and you are done.

billr · Post by **billr** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:04 am

Okay, okay, I get the hint... a lot of your discussion is about other details of that specific type of engine, not MS!

HidRo · Post by **HidRo** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:17 am

Correct

But why not discuss this "out loud". Maybe someone else can chime in, and provide some more help.

billr · Post by **billr** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:21 am

I agree, and I'm glad the OP was able to get connected with such detailed help.

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