LT1 MS3/MSX Composite log

[shortbus]

Here is my first composite log. I have almost all the sensors plugged in, but for this I wanted to see if you guys can tell my if the crank and cam sensors are reading correctly.

[Dookie454]

This is actually an LS1 as far as the MS is concerned (LS1 sensors right?).

Either way, check our composite log, the red line I think is sync. Flat = sync, bumps in the red line = sync loss (as I understand it). Now, the wrong settings can cause sync loss so dont get discouraged yet.

For example, my Vortec 350 I connected properly and randomly chose "LS1" for settings, and had horrible sync loss since the events werent happening as "LS1" is told too.

I personally do not know if the signals you have in the log are right so cant comment.

So, on a normal working log you might see a bunch of sync loss until the 2nd sensor aligns with the first sensor and the code determines sync.. then the red line will become flat and you will see sync.

This is the way I understand it anyway.

You can also put a new gauge to show as a Sync Loss Counter like I did:
1) right click on Gauge Cluster in TS, choose "DESIGNER MODE"
2) Right click the Dashboard/gauge cluster area again and choose "New/Add Gauge"
3) Right click the new gauge and Choose "Calculation 2" then "LostSyncCounter"
4) Move and resize the gauge then right lick again unclick

Then, go back out and reconnect, dont use composite logger this time.. just make sure TPS and sensors are working with key on.. and crank it you will see SYNC LOSS count jump up for every sync loss event.

This will confirm sync loss.

My LT1 Optispark had massive sync loss in sequential mode.. and none in batch fire.

My 97 GM Vortec 350 has no sync loss in sequential first try. Phew.

BTW, do you want some nice LT1 parts? Fully forged 383 short block, 6 speed trans conversion kit, McLeod twin disk clutch? These things and more are for sale.

[Dookie454]

To go with the last post I made, attached is a file from my optispark. Open this file in the composite logger inside tunerstudio.

The top green line is the high res signal, the middle blue line is the low res signal, and the bottom red line is sync loss.

You can see on left at first I crank it and the high res signal picks up repeatedly, with basically no signal from the low res (middle line), all while this is occuring there is sync loss indicated by the red line. Then once the low res (blue middle line) triggers, sync loss goes away and the signal is considered "good" from that point after.

Zoom in and out on the file until you can see what's going on.

[shortbus]

Yes, it is LS1 cam sensor and LS1 crank sensor. The crank wheel is the LS 24x style from EFI Connection. The cam wheel is a one tooth wheel also from EFI connection.

I noticed my TPS sensor was not registering... so I need to look to see if I spliced wrong. CLT and IAT worked and cam and crank seem to display something.

I will go through and make the log you suggested and add it to this thread.

I have to get power and ground to the coils and make some coil wires. I need to plug in my knock sensor, and get linear output from my wideband O2 sensor. Then I think I am done installing.

[shortbus]

OKay, I change the ignition settings like the manual shows.

I did what Dookie454 said and the sync loss gauge does not change from zero, but I am not sure if that is accurate.

I took another composite log too. I looks different then the previous log.

Can someone please look at it and help me decipher what is missing? Do i need to turn those little dials one direction or another?

[shortbus]

Can someone help me and clue me in on what I need to know?

I fixed the TPS sensor. It now reads throttle adjustments.

[Dookie454]

The square waves you see are the notches on your trigger wheels... the last log you posted showed 10 consistent teeth on the green, then the 2nd trigger fired and it looks like it shut off, or you stopped cranking?

So to me this log actually looks much better since the high res signal is consistent (compare the green line to your last log.. it was kinda scattered and random) but then everything stops at the first low res signal mark. How long did you crank this for? Try it again crank for 5-10 seconds. There's the possibility the MS3 unit "reset" for some reason the instant it received the second signal.

Are you trying to fire coils or injectors while doing this? If something is mis-wired or similar this could cause the system to reset. Always start sensor by sensor and progress until you see a problem.

I just connected my MS3X to my Vortec 5.7L 1997 Chevy, and no matter what I do I get 0 sync loss so not sure if that is sensitive enough to detect since I have 0 loss no matter what I do but again I really have no reason to expect sync loss so maybe I just dont get it with that setup (its an auto and I have to try stalling it with key on to see if it will detect loss that way).

On the LT1 Optispark it detected sync loss all the time, even when stalling so I know it worked but I dont think it does on some setups.

[shortbus]

I was continuously cranking the motor. The green line is pretty much right on from key turn to key release.

I don't know why the crank line went away between the first log and the second. I did a few other logs after the first and they all show the same as the last.

I then upgraded to 1.06 and fixed the TPS sensor (ground not connected).

But every log I try to get now only shows the same thing bunch of green then one blue spike and nothing else. The injector fuse was removed and no power to coils during these logs.

A few minutes ago I plugged in #1 plug wire, a spark plug tied to ground, and good power to the coils. No spark, but I think it is because there is no crank signal.

Anyone have any ideas? I will try anything. Can I test the crank sensor somehow?

I put a meter on both the crank sensor and cam sensor connectors.
on both I get:
pin a = 12v
pin b = ground
pin c = .6v

They are both powered from the black pcm connector B30 and their grounds go to the same ground bolt in the engine bay (all the MS3 grounds are there too).

[shortbus]

I went back through this page: http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/ignition.html#ignout

I turned both pots anti clockwise 6 turns then the R56 clockwise two complete turns.

A new log included.

It looks the same to me.

I will try the pull up at R57 if someone thinks that is what I need. I did not think I was supposed to, but I will if that is that way I should be doing this.

[jsmcortina]

Have you tried swapping the sensors wires and taking a composite log to confirm that the sensors themselves are working?

As posted in the LS1 topic, I'm running a stock V357 board with LS1 sensors set as per the manual and it appears to work fine.

James

[shortbus]

I will try that. I have a little bit of work to do and my kid has a soccer game today, so I will try and get back to you. Thanks.

I was going to buy a new crank sensor and see it that makes a difference. But your suggestion for swapping sensors is a good idea. I will be unpinning the connecters and swapping connectors since the two are different.

I was reading the LS1 thread (I think the one you mention) and that lead me to reading this: http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/ignition.html#vr
I have the IGN wire going to the crank signal (pin c) and the ground shielding is not hoked up the the connector ground pin b. The direct to the same location as the MS3 ground on the car in the engine bay. The power to both sensors are also the same taken from a switched 12v from the factory harness listed as B+ in both key on and engine on.
The above page says the shielding should be connected to ground right at the connector. I used GM pigtails and spliced in the wires, and this means there is about 6-8 inches of unshielded wire IGN wire and the connector. And the shielding just ends.
Should I change this or is the ground that is run sufficient?

I wanted to tell all of this in the interest of full disclosure. I know sometimes the experts can do something that seems so obvious but to the layman there can be something significant that is easily missed. (in other words if I am a dumbass please clue me in. )

[shortbus]

I could not pull the connector apart, but I did have an extra cam connector and I ran jumpers from the crank wiring to the extra cam connector. (nothing is plugged into he crank sensor)

Here is the log for the test.

I think what this means is a bad crank sensor.

[shortbus]

Okay, I have something interesting.

I used my old original factory crank sensor and jumpered the connector and plugged the cam sensor in. (the cam sensor and factory crank sensor are the same connector)

This is the log from that combination.

The blue line is very busy. The green line is pretty and blocky.

Background info.

On this page - http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/ItemDetails.aspx?ItemId=334 - is the crank wheel and crank sensor I am using.

24x LT1 Crank Reluctor for 96-97 GM Timing Cover and Single Row Timing Set


24x Crankshaft Position Sensor


I was told that the 24x sensor was specific to that wheel so I bought the 92 dollar sensor and pigtail. That wheel is supposed to be just like the 24x wheel used in LS1 motors. The EFI Connection kit is supposed to make LS1 PCMs manage the LT1 car.

The log attached is from my original crank sensor which was used with a 4 tooth crank wheel. All previous logs were with the "24x sensor" which I believe to be bad or maybe wired incorrectly which confuses me because I did get a good log once.

Any advice with this new info?

[shortbus]

2012-04-28_13.52.38-old_crank_sensor.jpg (151.86 KiB) Viewed 496 times

Can someone look at this log for me and tell me if I am going down the right path?

This is the original crank sensor with the efi connection 24x wheel. Does that look like what I should expect?
It is set to LS1 decoder.

Do I need to change the Trigger Offset Angle?
The crank sensor position is at about the 7 o'clock or 7:30 position.

[shortbus]

This is definitely the repeating pattern in the log.

pattern.JPG (51.9 KiB) Viewed 489 times

To my eyes it looks different that then the pattern found here: http://www.msextra.com/doc/triggers/ls1-pattern.jpg




Can someone tell me if I should be using a different tooth wheel setting?


Thanks.

[jsmcortina]

That composite log does not match the LS1 pattern at all. It looks like many teeth aren't being picked up to the extent that I cannot see the long/short patterns from the real LS wheel.
You might need to contact your supplier and ask for their help too.

James

[shortbus]

EFI Connection is closed until May 7th.

I went through and made a composite log with R56 at zero turns, 1turn, 2 turns, 3 turns, 4 turns, 5 turns, and 6 turns. I don't know if this is even information that is help full but I did it. The tooth count does change a little bit, but it mostly stays between 20 and 22 with 2 turns looking the most repeatable at 22.

[jsmcortina]

Did you try swapping crank and cam wiring (cut the loom?) to see if this is a sensor or input circuit issue?

I looked at all of those logs and it still looks like the crank sensor is missing lots of teeth.
When you are seeing 20 teeth, there should actually be 48.

James

[shortbus]

I did try swapping wiring. Well, half the wiring. I was able to put the crank wiring into the cam sensor and the one tooth cam sensor looked fine.
If you want I will run a whole new shielded wire through the car. I need a source for the wire though. The current wire goes directly to the sensor connector. I mentioned before I did not connect it to the ground pin. So, as it stands there is about 6-8 inches of non shielded wire in a convoluted tube. The cam wire is the same. They use the exact same power source and ground location. And with the ey on they read the exact same with a voltmeter.

I can post that log or take a new one.

I pulled the sensor out to see what the air gap was -- about 3/64ths or 4/64ths. I think that should be good.
When looking into the hole I noticed the wheel is not directly in the center of the whole. Would this cause only one of the row of teeth to be seen by the sensor? and explain all the missing teeth?

The red mark is one row of teeth and the blue the other. This picture angle kind of exaggerates the point. The red is more directly in the middle then there is a gap and then the blue is more towards the front of the car.

wheel_not_center.JPG (50.43 KiB) Viewed 466 times

Okay, I am looking for a Plan B. If I bolt a 36-1 wheel on the front of the hub will the MS3 still run everything like I want?

I have a sensor with Autozone part number SU2206 -- it is two wire so I will need to figure out how to wire it and find a pig tail.
If I use the 36-1 wheel from DIYAutotune can I use the crank sensor that I have been using so far? Or do I have to use the SU2206 sensor?

[jsmcortina]

That alignment doesn't look good and does sound like it could be the problem - the sensor needs to see both sets of teeth - is there any way that the wheel isn't mounted fully down on the crank?

A 36-1 on the crank combined with the existing cam wheel/sensor you have would be fine for sequential.

I don't know how the LS1 sensors respond to normal trigger wheels, I think they _might_ misbehave as they are designed to see the two sets of teeth.

James